Building Community Instead of Competition

What happens when creatives stop competing with each other — and start building together?

In this episode of The Back Office, Dalayna Dillon sits down with photographers and entrepreneurs Courtni Miller and Mekala Stiek, co-founders of The Called & Creative, to talk about community, creativity, and building the kind of support system they wish they would’ve had when they first started their businesses.

As independent photographers and business owners, Courtni and Mekala know firsthand how isolating and competitive the creative industry can feel. That experience led them to create The Called & Creative — a photography education and community platform designed to equip, encourage, and connect photographers, especially women navigating the early stages of business.

This conversation dives into the realities of creative entrepreneurship, the emotional side of comparison and competition, and why collaboration often creates more growth than guarding information ever could.

They also share the vision behind their podcast, their upcoming educational course for wedding photographers, and the lessons they’ve learned while building businesses rooted in both creativity and community.

If you’re a creative, service provider, or entrepreneur trying to build something meaningful while finding your place in a crowded industry, this episode will encourage you to keep going — and remind you that you don’t have to build alone.

No one has it fully figured out. But we’re building anyway.

Show Notes
Guests: Courtni Miller & Mekala Stiek
 Businesses:
 • The Called & Creative
 • Miller Image & Motion
 • Till the Dawn Photo Co.
Courtni Miller and Mekala Stiek are photographers, entrepreneurs, and co-founders of The Called & Creative, a photography education and community platform created to support photographers through mentorship, education, and connection.

In addition to running their own successful photography businesses — Miller Image & Motion and Till the Dawn Photo Co. — the two launched The Called & Creative as a way to create the kind of community and educational resources they felt were missing when they first entered the industry.
Together, they host The Called & Creative Photography Podcast and are currently developing an educational course for photographers interested in entering the wedding industry.

Their mission is centered around helping creatives grow with confidence, community, and clarity.

Find them online at:
Till the Dawn Photo Co.
Website: https://book.usesession.com/i/eJyEVwOVnM
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tillthedawnphotoco/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tillthedawnphotoco/

Miller Image & Motion
Website: https://millerimageandmotion.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/millerimageandmotion/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/millerimageandmotion/

The Called & Creative
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/calledandcreativeeducation/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/calledandcreativeeducation/

About The Back Office

Hosted by Dalayna Dillon
Founder & Creative Director of Signify Marketing

The Back Office invites listeners into honest conversations about marketing, growth, leadership, and the real decisions shaping active businesses.

Facebook/Instagram: @signifymarketingsocial 

www.signifymarketing.social

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

One, two, three, four.

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to the back office. I'm Delena Dillon, the founder and creative director of Signify Marketing, and this is where you sit in on real strategy. Each episode, we step into active businesses and have honest conversations about marketing, growth, leadership, and the decisions shaping what happens next. No one has it fully figured out, but we are building anyway. Today we're sitting down with Courtney Miller and Michaela Steek, photographers and co-founders of the Called and Creative, a photography education and community platform created to support and equip photographers, especially women in the creative industry. We're talking about collaboration over competition, building community, and creating the kind of education they wish they would have had when they first started. We've all had that where it's like, I wish I would have had this, knew this, whatever when I first started. But welcome, Michaela Courtney, to the back office. Excited to have you both here. I am just coining you guys the dynamic duo. We'll just go with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Yeah, sounds good. It sounds good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

So tell us for each of you, how did you get started in photography?

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah. So I'll go first. About six years ago, I picked up a camera, um, not even to start a business. It was literally um my friends had talked me into studying abroad for a semester.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Oh fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

And I was like, if I'm gonna go to Europe for like a semester, I'm gonna have really awesome pictures. So I went and bought a nice camera, learned all of the ins and outs of like how to take good pictures and everything, got all prepared literally less than 24 hours before we were supposed to leave, like bags were packed and everything. Uh COVID had like started hitting uh Europe.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

So this was like the beginning of the year? Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Um in 2020. Yeah. Um, and so the school ended up saying we're not calling it off entirely, but we are pausing to see like what everyone says about it, if you can even go. So we all went to the school, they had a meeting about it, and then a couple of days later they officially ended up canceling it entirely. Wow. And then they had to like rush to like get us into classes because it was two months in. Um, because if you haven't studied abroad before at most uh universities and stuff, they don't typically leave when the like beginning of the semester starts. They'll usually wait like a month or a month and a half and then they leave. Um, and so we were partway into the semester and trying to figure out how to deal with all of that. And then a couple weeks later, COVID hit um the United States. And so everyone was trying to figure that out. And at that point, like a lot of people got stuck at home. I had nothing better to do. Uh, so I just kept playing with my camera. And so had you like officially taken that semester off of classes there, so not entirely because they were able to like technically get us into classes. Okay, okay. Um, I didn't really learn anything because we got thrown into literally random stuff, and it was basically just to keep us um technically full time for our to like for scholarships and things, so we didn't lose anything. Um, and so we were already part way through it. We only went to in-person classes for like a week and then they switched to online because of COVID. And so then everything from that point on was online, and by that point the teachers were like, we're gonna do bare minimum stuff, and from that point on, it just kind of got worse and worse before like COVID kind of kind of hit. But so what were you majoring in? Um, at that time I was majoring in psychology. Um, so a lot of my classes, most of them by that point, I had done my generals. Um, and so they really struggled trying to find classes to to dump me in at that time. Um, but they were able to find just kind of a couple of random like classes that technically fulfilled some general studies, and then they got me into one psychology class that actually checked off a a box that I had to take anyways, which was kind of sad because I felt like I took it, but I didn't technically take it.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Um, but it ended up being okay because after that whole thing and me learning my camera and all of that stuff, I ended up changing my major to um multimedia, which is a mixture of graphic design and um like photography and videography and things like that. And from that point on, that kind of like changed the directory of like where I was going in life.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, talk about a pivot from the very beginning. Oh, yeah, to even get you into the industry. Yes. Wow. And then so did you just stick with photography from there? Did you start doing photography right out of college?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Pretty much, yeah, because basically I like to tell people my business kind of happened on accident because I didn't intend to start a business with it. I just got a nice camera, and then you know, after I got stuck, I kept learning it, kept taking pictures, and then more and more people, like family and friends, they were like, Hey, you have a nice camera. Can you come take our pictures? Right. We got engaged. Can you do our engagement pictures? And then slowly it was like, I'll pay you 50 bucks. And I'm like, Okay, cool. Like, I guess this is a business now. Yeah. And so it just kind of slowly morphed into there. I set up social media pages and more and more people started paying me to take their pictures. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I could turn this into a business.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

And it ended up getting big enough for me to use that as like my part-time job while I was finishing up school to be able to put myself uh through the rest of my undergrad. That's awesome. And then um after that I graduated and my husband and I got married and we moved here to Oklahoma. I'm originally from Nebraska. Oh, okay. Um, and so we moved here and I had a I had applied for a handful of jobs and stuff here, but basically I was able to move my business enough and get out in this area enough to actually just continue to do it full-time.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

That's incredible. Like that sounds like a dream situation.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

It really was. Yeah, I've never technically had a full-time job, but like outside of two wise. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's I've just been able to move straight from college into this. And so it's it's really, really cool because I think a lot of people they they have it the opposite where they start in a typical like W-2 or nine to five type of job and they slowly transition out of it into you know their business, where like I kind of built it while while I was going to school. Yeah. And so it just kind of naturally progressed that way.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

That's gotta be that's gotta be the dream. So, Mike Michaela, how about for you? What was what did that look like for you starting out?

SPEAKER_03 6:49

Yeah, so I actually started college as well.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Um But y'all didn't know each other.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

No, we've only known each other, what, three shh, yes. We met when my my oldest was one, I think. That sounds right. Yep, and he's almost four now. So almost three years, yeah. Yeah, but I actually started college as well, but I very much did it on purpose. I very much started a business from the beginning. Um, I was working full-time, I was going to school full-time, and I was, you know, totally on my own, paying for an apartment, living the adult life. And so I was trying to work two jobs, but I just I was so burnt out because I was like, I'm on somebody else's schedule 24-7. So I was like, if I need additional income, it would be much better for me to be able to do something on my own time, you know, be able to schedule it out, you know, do things on my computer whenever I need to. And so I've always loved taking pictures. Me and my friends in college, we would, you know, take our iPhones out and get dressed up and go take pictures of each other. And I always loved that. And so I was like, what can I do as a business that I would also enjoy? And photography was that. And so I had a little bit of money saved up from probably graduation because you know, high school graduation a little bit of money set aside from that. So I went and bought the one camera I could afford at Target and just a little Kitlin's crop sensor body, very very starter. Um, and then I luckily my dad is uh an administrator at Tulsa Tech. And so I was able to go take some night courses at Tulsa Tech. And that's how I learned like all my settings and all the things I know about photography. Of course, I've learned things over the years. Right. That was really how I got my start. Yeah. So once I took, I think I took two night courses, they're about eight weeks um each, about 16 weeks total. Um, after that, I was able to just kind of start with model calls. So I kind of charged 25, 50 bucks. Um, and then as I grew my portfolio and things, I just kind of started charging more and more and more. Um, and that was my sidekick for a long time. Um, I actually ended up getting a business degree and then teaching high school for three years. Oh wow. Yeah. And then once my son was born, like I said, he's almost four now. Um I had every intention of going back to work and putting him in daycare. And then he was born and I said, I can't do it. And so luckily I have my business to fall back in. So kind of like by accident too, like I never intended on photography being my full-time career. I did start it as a business to make money, but it was more of like a side gig and it was like a fun side hustle. I never intended it for to be my whole life, but yeah, now it is. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

Well, that's incredible. Well, and okay, so what did you teach in high school? I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_03 9:29

I was a business teacher, and so I've got my graphic design, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

That's gotta go into helping you with your photography business because you got a business degree, plus you were teaching business. Yeah. So how has that strengthened what you've built, like in the business sense?

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Yeah, as far as like my personal photography business, yeah. Um, in all sorts of ways. I've I look back on I feel like I've lived a whole lifetime before like my photography started, even though I was so young. Um, so I'm only 27 now, but I feel like I've lived a couple of careers.

SPEAKER_00 10:03

Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

And I think a lot of people would look back on it and like regret their time teaching, like, oh, I could have been a photographer all this time, or I could have built up my business. I don't regret it at all because I feel like I've gained so many skills, like getting a business degree, being in, you know, the education world. I've learned a lot as a mom too, things that I can take back as a mom and use in the future. Um, so I don't regret any of it at all. It's just it's only built me up as a person. And the more you learn as a person, the more your business is gonna thrive.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

So well, and I just don't imagine that a lot of photographers have a business degree. But then I think what's hard in the photography, and not just photography, but in the creative industries is there's a level of skill like that that you've been taught, but then a lot of it is just developed because the more you do it, the better you get at it. You get your look, you get your style, and that's why people come to you. But even in any of those creative type of industries, the business piece, you gotta remember like this is what I love to do. I love being creative, I love all this. But at the end of the day, this is a business, and I've got it's gotta be sustainable, it's gotta be, it's gonna make sense for my life, all of these things. So I can only imagine that that business degree and that experience has strengthened the health of your photography as a business, not just as, oh, she's really good at this, but this is a business, we take it seriously, we charge what we need to charge, we handle things like it's a business.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

And this is something we talk about quite often is we have both had experience with not only other photographers, but creatives that they're really good at what they do, but when it comes to communication and client experience and just like the business side of the business is lacking. Yeah, and so that's something that we've been really passionate about is like helping people realize like, yes, you can be an amazing photographer, but we also gotta work on these other things and we want to provide an amazing experience, we want to be profitable, we want to be ready for the long term, otherwise we're gonna crash and burn at some point, and so that is something that we talk about quite frequently because that that is a chronic issue in the creative industry.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

I can imagine it is. Is that some of what led into you creating together called and creative? Is that some of the problems that you were looking to address?

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Definitely. I would also say like part of it just being like a lack of community a little bit too. Um, just because when you own your own business, you typically don't have employees, you don't work in an office setting, you don't really see other people, you know, as much as you would if you worked a nine-to-five, you know, Monday through Friday. And so for us, like another piece of it was being able to find other people who were like us that we could become friends with and create community and just be a support system because sometimes it can be really lonely to be an entrepreneur. Yeah. And especially in the creative field, because I just really feel like, you know, if you're creative, you're giving so much into like what you're doing that a lot of times it's hard to like pour back into yourself. Right. And so for us, like the community part was really important.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah. Um, and that would kind of be hard though, because it's in photography, but in a lot of creative spaces, everyone looks at each other as competition. So how has that been, you know, creating that space where we are technically competition? People could go to any person in this room, but to create community there in that space.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

So I think they both have gone through so much business at this point that we've realized that like your specialty is so important. And you can, you know, shoot a variety of things, but really you need to have a couple of different things that you're really good at. And so, like at this point in my business, I'm primarily shooting real estate and branding. Okay. Courtney is like the opposite, she's primarily shooting weddings and newborns. Okay, so we just send things back and forth, you know. Yeah, if I have a newborn pop up or this just happened two days ago. I have a family who I've done all of their photos, they live just a couple blocks down the road from me. She's due with her third baby at the same week as I am. So they cannot do their newborn photos. Um, and so I'm just sending them on to Courtney.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

And yeah, same thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

If she has a branding client that she can't get to or doesn't want to, um, she sends it over to me. So I think people don't realize that you are not in competition with everybody. Yeah, you really are only in competition with a few select people. Yeah, and it's okay to pick up, you know, I still pick up, you know, that family. If I had been able to do their newborn photos, I would have because I've shot with them before. But typically I'm not gonna pick up a brand new client's newborns.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Um I might not come to you because you don't showcase that. Right. You don't talk about that on your mark in your marketing.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

And everybody's not your client either. Yeah, and so you can't service everybody. And so once you realize that it's so much easier to be friends with other creatives because you're like, oh, we can actually help each other, but we're not competing against each other.

SPEAKER_00 15:16

Well, and I do think probably in the beginning, people kind of take anything they can get. Yeah, but yeah, like you said, focusing in on what you're really good at, what you want to be good at, and then developing your look because there are being in the field that I'm in, there's people businesses who want branding shoots or they need new headshots or whatever. And so I'm able, because I do know not everybody, but I know a good number of photographers, and so I can think based on that photographer's look and style, who matches their the the brand best? Like if they're very bright and light, okay, well, then it might be this photographer, but if they're more of a contrasted, moody type of edgy, that's gonna be a different photographer. Yeah, and uh and there's space for everybody, yes, there's space for everyone in it. So, what other things did you feel like photographers needed that really caused you to launch called in creative? Community is a big one. What else?

SPEAKER_03 16:12

I really wanted a local education. So when I went full-time, I actually joined like a six-month high-level coaching program. Okay, but it was all online. So the coach, the the girl who owns the coaching program, she's in Canada and then she has coaches like across the United States. And so everything we did was Zoom calls. Yeah, it was great. I learned so much. I I mean quadrupled my business after going through that program. It was an amazing program, but I didn't have that local community. Like I wanted to be hands-on, I wanted someone to come to a shoot with me and watch what I'm doing and sit down and look at numbers with me and do all those things. Like I wanted something local, yeah. And so that was part of that for me. And I also love teaching because I used to be a teacher. It's in you, yeah. I wanted to be able to do some like workshops, some individual coaching and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah, so explain just in case I haven't fully given space for it, explain exactly what is called in creative. You it is a community, but tell us more of a picture of what it is and what you guys created it to look like.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

So we're kind of still in the process of entirely, you know, defining exactly what our flushing it out does. Yeah, because we just started this what September our first workshop was August August.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

So still pretty new.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yeah. Um, so we're still kind of trying to figure it out. We're we kind of have some ideas for some online courses and then um some like in-person workshops as well as just like local like community things. Like uh, we had done uh like a coffee meetup a few months ago, and that was really fun. Yeah. Um, but really we just really want it to be like what we wish that we would have had when we were starting, because I I'm sure you probably could feel this too, but a lot of my questions um kind of got answered or I looked for them on what I call YouTube University. Yes. Um, because you know, you Google it and you find a video of somebody talking about it, and that's like sometimes the only way that you can figure it out. Yeah. Um, especially when you're first starting out. And in my opinion, I think there was probably some gaps that probably could be filled. And that's kind of what I'm looking to create here is to kind of fill some of those gaps and just encourage women and like creatives to actually step into it and just give it a shot. So do you visualize this for more than just photographers? I would love it to be. I in my opinion, I mean, yes, photography specifically because that's what we do.

SPEAKER_00 18:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

But in my opinion, being creative, like there's just so many different outlets that kind of encompass that. And a lot of creatives are kind of multi-creative in that sense. If that um, so like, yeah, I do photography, but like literally all growing up, like I drew, I painted, I did pottery, and you know, I did all of the creative things. I was that creative kid growing up, and so looking back, like nobody's super surprised that this is what I'm doing now. Right. But I just think it's so like just being creative in general and figuring out like how to, you know, use that as part of who you are and what you do and like some of your purpose. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

So there's so many different ways. Like I actually ran into a friend yesterday at the nail salon and we ended up getting together afterwards, and she's a makeup artist. Okay. And so we just I went over to her house and she showed me her new studio and things, and we just came up with so many ideas of how we could work together and like build each other's businesses together. Yeah. We do completely different things, you know. I don't do any kind of makeup for anyone.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

But it makes sense why she would fit nicely with that.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Yeah, so we talked about doing like a headshot um event where she could do makeup and I could take photos, and she wants to start like a coffee meetup for moms who are also entrepreneurs, and all mom entrepreneurs will be welcome. And so just different things like that, ways that we can support each other. And so I could see it growing a little bit. Yeah, obviously we're we're so focused on photography because what we do, and that's what we know, it's not what that's what we know how to teach. Yeah, um, but I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Well, but and so that skill set, like you said, photography trainings and things like that makes sense, but there is elements of it that goes does go across industry. Yes. Anything in the creative. I love that you said makeup artist. I mean, there's so many people that that would a hundred percent align with that, right? So do what what do you think creatives struggle with emotionally that people outside the initi industry might not realize?

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Loneliness. Yeah, that's a big one. Uh imposter syndrome, that's a big one. That's a huge one. That's a big huge one in the photography industry.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Because there's always someone bigger, you think?

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Yeah, like bigger doing more. There's always somebody who's just a little bit better than you, and there's always somebody who's just a little bit different than you. Yeah, and you may not ever be at that level at that sense, like just because they're different, yeah. Um, and it's just so easy. I mean, you get on Instagram, there's a million photographers, and it's just so easy to compare your work to those around you. Yeah, and it's everywhere, you know. Think about photography, I mean magazines, billboards, I mean, it's everywhere. Yeah, yeah, you're constantly surrounded by it. Yeah. So imposter syndrome is something that uh a lot of photographers should deal with.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

And so talk more about the loneliness too, because I feel like some people might not get what that means. Like, what do you mean lonely? I you know what I mean? Like you're doing everything by yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

You know, you're you're the one that's running the business. You're not only providing, you know, the service or the creative, whatever it is that you're you're giving to people, but you also have to do all the back end stuff. Right. You know, you gotta, if you don't have the the money to hire somebody to do that, you're doing the bookkeeping. You're doing, you're sending the proposals and the contracts and the invoices. You know, you're keeping track of everything. It really is. There's so that goes into running a business. Yeah. I think a lot of creatives fall into the this is what I wanted to do. I wanted to be creative. Right. But there's so many other things that you have to do on the business end that just overwhelm us because all we wanted to do is just be creative and like do this one thing.

SPEAKER_03 22:19

It's easy to just like we got together with another photographer a month or so ago. And afterwards I was like, wow, I needed that. Like I needed that community. And I get so wrapped up in my own little world and doing all the things that I do that you forget that like you do need that community. And so yeah, I think it's easy to get lonely.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

I think you would relate to this story. So this is kind of me personally, because I a hundred I listen, I know what it looks like, what the work that you guys are out like, oh, it's so fun to take the photo shoot. But like I know that's what we see out front, and that's like, you know, maybe an hour session, but then I don't know, behind the scenes, behind a computer screen, editing all of these things, and that's not to mention what you were saying of writing proposals for your next client, sending invoices, sending reminders for the unpaid invoices. But um, this is something I think y'all can relate to. So when I went, I went to I majored in kind of the same degree that you did in college. So it was very much, it was more media or more video focused than foot photography, but a graphic design, videography, all those things. And um, I a lot of my friends like they knew that that's what I did. So a lot of the things I was working on were projects, you know. So while they were in class, I was in class too, but that was like an hour of class and then four hours of work on outside of class. And so I think it kind of set this expectation of my friends that um if I wanted to spend time with them, what I would do. This is I don't think this, but what I would do was I would stay up all night because I'd want to go hang out with them. But then I still had that four-hour project or video to edit or whatever it was. So then I was the one staying up all night. They got to go to sleep. I did not. And so actually after college, like years after college, a college friend moved back into my to Tulsa. And it was so interesting to me because she would, you know, I I don't do the same thing, but I do a lot of the same thing. Like it's still a lot of projects, you know, all these kinds of things. And it was so interesting to me because she would always be asking me to like just come over, just do this. I'm like, I I have work to do, like I've got to work. Um, and she's and she literally told me, she's like, well, I'm just so used to how it was in college where like you just still hung out with us and then you would just stay up and do your projects. And that really, it kind of bothered me. It rubbed me because to, you know, now that I'm older and wiser and don't pull uh pull all-nighters, um, I it kind of bothered me because I'm like, you're willing for me to sacrifice my health, my well-being, my sleep so that I could find have community with you. Um, but you're asleep whenever I still have to go home and do the work that I was should have been doing while we were spending time together.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

And you know what's crazy is clients will do kind of the same thing. Like they expect you to be editing non-stop. Yeah, which I have really good clients. I've just built my business around like having really good clients. And I think that you've probably done the same thing. But especially if you're lower charging, like people can just be so, oh, why are you out with your family having pizza? You should be editing pizza. So bad.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Oh, that makes me that really that burns me.

SPEAKER_03 25:33

Especially like in the fall when it's so busy. You know, we see posts all the time of clients are blowing up my phone, wanting to know why I'm not editing on why are you having a coffee date or why are you doing this or that?

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Because I don't have my phone.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Because I don't get to have a life. I'm a photographer.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, yeah, you should be doing my well. I just think that that's a piece of that too, that people outside of this kind of work don't see that we are kind of expected to sacrifice things because it's solo if we're doing things behind the scenes that they don't see. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of that happens when you're by yourself editing photos. Yeah, yeah. So in this community that you're building and growing, how do you help others, or even what advice would you give to others on fighting that uh that kind of natural tendency to look at everyone as competition?

SPEAKER_01 26:26

So for me, um, I just think it's more of a you have to realize that one, not everyone is your client. And two, like even Michaela and I, like we kind of have similar editing styles, but we don't shoot the same. How would you describe your style? I'm just curious. So my style, I would call it more like moody, contrasty, um, a little edgy, um, romantic type. Um hers is very moody as well, but uh in my opinion, not quite as contrasty. Yeah, a little more true to color. Um, but still like it's it's different enough that you know, I don't view her as direct competition. You know, she also doesn't shoot the same stuff that I do. She does a lot of real estate and branding and works with businesses and things. Whereas like I'm more like doing weddings and maternity and newborn right now. That's mostly what I'm shooting. And so there's really no reason for me to, you know, be jealous of anything that she has. I mean, I'm very proud of her and the business that she has built, but there's no reason for me to to view her as like, oh man, she got the client and I didn't.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, you know, because it's usually not the same clients. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

I mean we have like swapped clients a few times. There was once that I had like a newborn session and I was I thought I was going to labor with my second baby, and so I had a friend to do it. My client came right back to me, yeah, because they trusted and so we have like good people, you know, but it's not really a worry. And I think the more that you surround yourself with actual people and not just look at the competition on across Facebook or Instagram, the more you realize, like, okay, they're people and they're not my competition, yeah, they're my friends. I like that as that.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Yeah, get in the room with them, don't just follow them.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

Yeah, yes. One, so many photographers I feel like are so bad about this of just literally staying in their own little bubble, like never looking for community outside of their own business. And yeah, you need it. Yes, you know, you really, really do. I hate I hate to be a Debbie Downer if that's not your thing, but everybody needs the the community.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Yeah. So I is there an element where you actually help well, I know with y'all because you're providing education, but even just being in the room with other photographers, doesn't it tend to make you better?

SPEAKER_03 28:45

Oh, you learn so much. Yeah, there have been times that we've been talking about something and she says that, oh, I do this thing in Lightroom. And I'm like, You can do that? Right. Show me how you do that. And so there's just things that come up in conversation, and when you do the same things, it's easy to just talk mutually about the things that you do all day. And so there are just natural things that come up, and you're like, Oh, wait, tell me more about that. Like, I want to learn more from you.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

Yeah. And so, yeah, yeah, I I really like that. So this is uh kind of funny. It's been some time, but I talked with another photographer, Tracy Baker, and we were joking around, and I was saying, How like we need wedding photographers to like have their podcast of the worst stories? Because I'm I don't know. When you said you were a wedding photographer to me, I'm like, I need to hear all the horror stories because I feel like the two things that you cover are the most stressful things probably to cover because you you got newborns and you got weddings, these are big milestones. But do you have any good? Do you have a good story for us on a wedding?

SPEAKER_01 29:51

I don't know. I don't know if I have that many like chaotic stories. Most of my clients too. Yeah, I have.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

They're just they're very glow with the flow, which is kind of you just have attracted all of the very chill brides. I have, yeah, I really have.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

I will say I have worse luck with the moms.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Oh, really? Like mother of the brides. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:12

They're always really just high strong. Yeah, I get it. Like it's your little girl's wedding, you're thinking about this, and she is the day she is born. I get it. But there have been times where the bride has been like, hey mom, like chill out. I paid her, I trusted like yeah, yes. Is always the mom.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

So if it's not the bride, then it's the mother of the bride. Yeah, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

I have not had any crazy I really wish I had one. Well, I don't know. You don't wish I wish I had something to tell you, right? I gotta have it through that. Right. I got a lot of drunk rooms now. Really? And that's frustrating sometimes.

unknown 30:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

You're like, come on, just look. Look at the camera. Let's focus for another thing. Well, I'm sure it's a lot of fun. It's a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun, hopefully, most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

You ever had like a baby or anything before?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Not on me.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Okay, actually. So there's a funny story with that one. So this couple came in with their baby, first-time parents, and you could kind of tell, like, they were kind of nervous and not entirely sure like how to fully hold it or like do all the things. Well, they I kid you not, it it pooped in the diaper. They took the diaper off and it like projectile pooped. Oh no. Like, and it kept doing it. And like the mom like panicked and didn't know what to do. And so, like, she tried to put another diaper underneath there, and it like straight up pooped on her. Was she gonna be in the pictures too? She was going to oh no. So we had to like she used something from my client closet, which ended up being really good, but I just felt so bad for her. Yeah, she was already like she came in frazzled, like really. She's feeling like an amateur, yeah. Yeah, but it's okay. I mean, we made it work that she loved their pictures. I just felt really bad for her.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Well, it gave a story. I'm sure they have told that story even to the child many times. So you on the called in creative, you also you do events, you do trainings, education, um, but you also have a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

We do.

SPEAKER_00 32:12

So, what is the focus? What are the conversations that you're having or wanting to have on that podcast?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

So, so far, I think it's kind of been a good mix of like um kind of some educational stuff. Okay. And then hot yeah, like hot takes and things.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Um I love hot takes.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Yeah, we had we did one about like AI um with photography and things like that. Um, we talked about like the crazy prices of like SD cards and like SSDs and external drives and things like that. They're still very high. They're so high. Yeah. Um trying to think of what else. That's mostly what we've like covered at this point. It's very organic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Are you in any like Facebook groups for what you do, like other people who do what you do? And they just kind of chat on there.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Um, if you, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's not local, but yes.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

Yeah, so we're in a lot of photography like that, and so we kind of watch like the posts on topics. What are people talking about? Yeah, so we kind of use that to our advantage.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

Um, we're kind of on a little break right now, just nice to be very busy. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Is this busy season for y'all? Like, what is normally busy?

SPEAKER_03 33:21

Okay, yeah, yeah. So slow season is like January through March-ish. Okay. March starts to pick up. I don't really like to shoot outside of March. So March is still kind of slow for me. And then we had another lol like July, August. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Just crazy hot.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Because people don't want to do oh, and people are saving for you know back to school clothes and all of those things. So that kind of has two little slow seasons here. Um, so we're kind of taking a little break and then slow season will hit and we'll probably take back that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Well, I'm sure other photographers too, they're like, Yeah, I'm gonna want to listen anyway.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

I gotta work. Yeah, that's kind of what we were thinking. But I think next season we want to bring some people on and have some more like in-person conversations like this.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

Which is really what I enjoy. I love. I love just learning about people and hearing their story and learning from them.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Yeah. And that is is that podcast called the Called and Creative? Okay, so it's the same name. Same name. So people can find it. Yeah. Okay. So what do you feel like, especially you're saying you're like even seeing in these groups and things, what are newer photographers struggling with most right now? Do you think?

SPEAKER_03 34:27

I yeah, I feel like it's a business end. Yeah. Yeah. How do I get clients? How do I keep clients? How do I keep clients happy? Or is that the biggest learning curve when you're getting started? The business part? Yeah. Yeah. I would say so, especially if you don't have like a business background, which most people do not. Yeah. Um, especially if you're starting a photography business, you know, they they're creative people and so they think it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Yes, yes. They're like, it's just let me just do what I love. A lot of them learn the hard way, yeah, fortunately.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah. Which is really sad because I feel like that's it's probably the world has been robbed of a lot of people who really would have been good because they didn't, you know, they didn't learn the business right or uh at least try and like figure it out long enough. They just they got too burnt out trying to just do the creature.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Yeah, very, very real. And I've dealt with this several times myself, but yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

So what are things that y'all do to keep yourself from being burnt out? Because sometimes when you're burnt out, it's already too late. Like you send in reinforcements, it's too late to prevent this. It's happened.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

So for me, a big one is um I put like a cap on like how much I will book. Okay. Um like a number of sessions or number of sessions and weddings. So for me, I I do not take more than three weddings in a month. For me, that is that's maxed out for weddings.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

I think I saw you share that on your social media that like how many you had left for the next couple months.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

Yep. Yeah. And I'm really I really only have room for like one more this fall.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Um, but that has really worked well for me because I don't feel right about taking so many in a month that I potentially show up to a couple's wedding not feeling like myself and not being able to capture their day at the best of my abilities, all because I wanted to take on an extra wedding.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

You know, I don't think that's fair for them. It's definitely not fair for me because then I'm gonna be sitting on the back end trying to edit their photos, being like, oh, I wish I would have done this.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

You don't look at these people anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

So I think for me that has really helped. Um, same thing with sessions. I will typically um I usually book my weddings about a year or so out.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Um, so that kind of helps give me an idea of okay, this month is full for weddings. I could take on a few less sessions this month, um, or more if it's a slower month for weddings. And so that kind of helps because the the time frame for booking sessions versus weddings is a little different. But that's been a big help for me is capping how many I will take.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Yeah, and in a world where more seems always better, that's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:10

Okay, and what about you? I think I have a couple of things.

SPEAKER_03 37:13

And so first would be just choosing a specialty that really works for your lifestyle. And so that is why I went into more so branding and real estate because I can do most of that Monday through Friday, nine to five. Yeah, but I'm a weekend girly, I love my weekends. I wanna sleep in on Saturday, I want to grill out in the evening, I want to go to church on Sunday, I want my weekend. And so I shot, you know, portraits for so long that I got really burnt out because all evenings are weekends, you know, you don't get anything else, right? Some people love that. I have a friend who she only shoots weddings. It works great for her. Her husband works during the week, she keeps her daughter during the week, and then they kind of swap. Yeah, and she goes and does her thing on the weekends. She loves it, it's great for her. I would hate that. Yeah, I would get really burnt out doing that. And so for me, real estate and branding's great. I can work my regular Monday to Friday. And so it's still flexible. Yeah. Like my kids, my family, and things. And so that would be number one for me is picking a specialty that really works for your lifestyle and realizing that it can change too. Like your kids are gonna grow up, your lifestyle is gonna change, the things that you have going on on the outside, and then your personal life are gonna change. You can change specialties, that's okay. Yeah, and so just knowing that is really helpful. Um, and then my other one's outsourcing. Um, I outsource most of my editing. Okay, not all, not all of it, but a good chunk of my editing I actually outsource, and that is a huge help. Not everybody likes to do that, but there's other ways to outsource you. Get a virtual assistant, yes, um, taxes, bookkeeping, bookkeeping, yeah, different things like that. And so figuring out where you can outsource or where it's actually gonna make you more money is costing you money because you get extra time to actually work.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:01

Um, is really important too.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Yeah, that's that is definitely something that people might not think of. Yeah. A lot of two people I've talked to recently, literally what they both said to me about a virtual assistant is I wish I had done this sooner. Yes. Both of them. But again, they are at a place where it made sense for them. Right. But both of them says that said they wish they had done it sooner. Yeah. So if that's a message to anybody, maybe that means it's and sometimes it's just for a season too.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Like I have two toddlers at home. It isn't unless I stay up super late at night and I'm not a night out either, I want to go to bed. And so, unless I stay up super late, I don't have time to sit at my desk and work. And so outsourcing editing is a huge time saver for me because that's time I don't have to sit at the desk. Right. That's time I can be with my family.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah, and when you give them a good product to edit, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:52

Yeah, find a good editor. Most of their work's done. You have to find a good editor. There are bad editors out there, it takes time. I have an amazing editor. I love her. I hope she never quits, or I don't know what I'm gonna do. But find a good editor, but yeah, it's it's an option. People don't brilliant. Most people don't know it's an option.

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, I honestly didn't I wouldn't have thought of that. Yep. I would not have thought of that at all. Okay, so since we are talking to two people who either are doing or have done weddings, what is for what are some beginner photographers' mistakes that they've made that they could have been avoided with better education? Um, and what's things they need to know before entering a wedding? And then starting out, what do you need to know before stepping foot?

SPEAKER_03 40:38

So we actually just filmed an entire wedding. Oh, you did shop yay.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Oh, okay. Tell us about that because people need to know.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

Yeah, so we uh filmed it in January. Yes, it was late January. Actually, ended up getting rescheduled. We had a wholesale shoot plan that we sketch like that we scheduled to film this workshop. Um it was when we had that big snowstorm. Oh my word. Yeah, so we had to reschedule it. So it ended up being the end of January. Um, we're still working through the back end of all that. But um, it's just like an online course with videos showing you how the flow of a wedding day works. Because if you've never been intimately involved in a wedding, like you've never been a bride or a groom, uh maid of honor, or some kind of wedding vendor, you don't not all wedding vendors even see like a full picture. Um but yeah, if you don't have that experience of how like a wedding flows from getting ready to the grand exit, I mean you're gonna have a really rough day. Yeah, and so that's what the wedding workflow workshop is. It's it's a step-by-step of how we plan ahead, how we pack, um, what we do when we arrive, and then like the flow of the day and how each step looks throughout the day as far as photography goes.

SPEAKER_00 41:52

That is awesome. So pe this it's not out yet, it's not available yet.

SPEAKER_03 41:56

Yeah, it will probably not be out till the end of the year.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

Okay, if I would if I'm and people can can purchase it and then go through it online.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 42:04

Okay, well, that's what they need to know. Yeah, they need to know. Okay, so back to the business side of things. What what has been the hardest part of actually building a creative business?

SPEAKER_03 42:16

Let me go. I'm like a talk here. I'm a talk. I will talk this mic all day long.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Um I don't know. I would say like for me, the realizing that you do have to charge people and that it's yes, this is like something I want to do, and but it's also a business. Yes. And I need to be able to make money. I need to be able to pay my own bills, I need to be able to, you know, feed my family and do what I need to do so that I can show up and be my best self and you know, give them good work.

SPEAKER_00 42:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

And so, you know, setting setting prices that are actually like functional for you and they cover all of your costs of doing business and you still get some left over. Yeah. You know, um, I think that's probably one of the biggest things that especially most photographers I see in a lot of the groups and on Facebook where they're talking about, oh yeah, I'm just starting out. How do you get people to actually pay you to do this? And I think it's a lot of a mindset thing of like, I'm not worthy of being paid to do what I'm doing. And I think that a lot of it probably comes back to imposter syndrome, kind of like what we were talking about earlier. And I think it's just a, you know, why would people pay me to do something that, you know, maybe isn't worth it? But it really is. Yeah. Especially if you have put time and effort into it and you're good. And you know, it's a a lack of confidence on our part too, because other we we put a lot of our um, you know, we we let other people dictate how good we are when we need to know that we are good enough and we're worthy to actually be paid to do this job. Right. And so I think a lot of new business owners, especially in photography, fall into that trap.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah. Well, and I know, and you probably have, is this a mistake you made in the beginning was underpricing yourself?

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Yes. And like even really believing that people would actually pay you to do that. Um just because it's like, you know, it's just it's taking pictures. Yeah. And so it's a huge step of like, oh, it's I'm just taking people's pictures. Well like why would they pay me to do that? Well they would pay me to do that because I know what I'm doing and I know more than the average person who is just holding their phone. Yes. You know, I know how to pose. I know how to actually set my camera to take the best possible picture. I know where to position them for the lighting. I, you know, there's so many things that I know above and beyond a normal person. Right. That that that is part of what justifies you know someone paying me to do this. Yeah because this is a legitimate job. The average person couldn't just walk in and do it.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

No, listen that's true.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

For the public. And like how much we put into it, how much education we have the knowledge that I do have above and beyond someone with an iPhone. Yeah. We see posts all the time of I need a photographer who's not going to charge me an arm and a leg and I want to I want a full experience for a hundred dollars and like that won't even cover my gas to get get a teenager with an iPhone.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yes. If that's what you want that's what if that's what you want to pay that's what you're going to get. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

So it's hard to like come out of that that voice in your head when like that's the public's opinion and I mean how many times has someone said how's your little photography business going?

SPEAKER_01 45:46

Oh so much.

SPEAKER_03 45:48

That's my career. Like that is my life you know my word. And so it's like it's hard to overcome that force but when you surround yourself with people who get it yeah it makes all the difference makes it easier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

Because I know I think it's good to just remind yourself like they don't get it and that's okay. Yeah. Because if you have the people that do get it then you're like yeah we know we know yeah yeah I think that too with the pricing issue it's it's an it's every industry people don't price themselves what they need to and then they find out later. But I know for me there that was a learning curve for me too in what I do. And what I realized too is once I realized oh what is the cost of me actually doing business okay and then I need to I need to charge more but also I started realizing when I did kind of want to quote unquote help someone out and give a low ball price to them what ended up happening is I felt taken advantage of but they I the one who gave them the price so I sh I really have no right to feel that way I told them how much it would be but because then I'm the one doing the work and I'm like I'm doing a lot more work than what this is worth right I felt taken advantage of which really I shouldn't have because I'm the one who gave them the price.

SPEAKER_03 47:08

Right. And that's I don't think this is an issue in your industry. We have a lot of bartering with photography which we trade sessions and I have a select handful of people that I will trade with because they support my business even if I'm not taking their pictures they're my friend like they trust and support me. I just have my select people who I will trade with yes but you have to be so careful because people will take advantage of you and they will try to trade you for something that's what worth like way less than what you're giving them. And so that has been a huge thing that I've seen too is people undervaluing themselves by bartering. Which bartering's great that's what you want to do but you still have to make sure it's worthwhile and the person that you're trading with is what you trust.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Yeah you have because then again you could be in a place where you feel like you got taken advantage of but you agreed to it.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

Yep yes so I I've definitely experienced that but um I also understand too what the cost of them giving me that is versus the cost of me giving them my time. Right. You know because a lot of times they might want to give a product and like well I know it cost you about 30% of what you're charging. So to to say that the full value of that is equal to X number of dollars I know that's not true. And there's no there's no markup like for me the cost like it's my time and all of the resources that go into doing that.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

So yes I think that's a really great and that you you could have done yeah yeah for their time you know exactly anytime I barter for a session you're taking an hour away from someone who would have paid for it. Yeah so you just have to make sure that it's worth worth your time you know that's very it's okay to say no to yes okay I would love to work with you here's my pricing guide but I'm not interested in a bartering yeah so I just can't do it right now.

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Yeah that's and it's totally fine. Yeah it's a okay okay so before we close I always ask this question what is one thing and both of you can give an answer what is one thing you don't have fully figured out yet but you're choosing to build through anyway you want to conversation yeah I guess so I haven't thought about this too much lately.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

Um I think I don't know my whole future with photography like I don't I can't tell you what it's going to look like in 20 years. Yeah um it's just kind of a day-to-day basis and like I said it ebbs and flows with my lifestyle and my kids and what we have going on which is so beautiful. Yeah it's great that I have a career that can do that but I couldn't tell you what I'm gonna be doing in 10 years or I don't or even five years. I I don't know. Maybe I'm doing exactly what I'm doing right now and maybe I'm doing something completely different. Yeah I guess that would probably be my biggest trouble right now is just not knowing.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Yeah yeah that's kind of a hard one um I would maybe even say some of the business end of things because I I've put so much time and energy into figuring out how to do the creative side right that I'm still trying to work on the business end of it because unlike Michaela like I I don't have any I don't have a business degree. I didn't take any business classes all of my classes were creative. They were graphic design and social media and photography and videography all things that I use on a daily basis in my job but the business end can be kind of overwhelming for me sometimes. So figuring out how to balance that end while still maintaining all of my creativity and the energy that it takes for me to do that and still you know put out good work. Yes. It can kind of be exhausting. So I'm still kind of trying to figure that out and how I need to um kind of format it with my life so that I can stay up to date with the business backend and not feel like oh my gosh it's been three months since I've done my bookkeeping. I don't even know what I brought in. Like oh my gosh I need to sit down and do this. Yeah. And then have to like take a whole week to figure it out because I waited too long. And um so I think that end for me is something I am still still figuring it out figuring out and still trying to work on but honestly I think that's okay. And I think that that kind of even makes you know the called and creative all that much more like real because we're still trying to figure it out too you know absolutely well and because no matter how much you learn or know there's still more to learn oh there's always going to be more there's always going to be more and I mean it that's that isn't even like you know on the business end too but also on the creative stuff there I mean there's new cameras new lenses coming out there's different ways to edit there you know different things you can do to the picture on the back end like new techniques new lighting you know styles and things I mean there will always be something new to learn. Yeah so I think that if you're you know interested in pursuing this like don't close off like the the ability to learn you know I think you always have to adapt because if you're not willing to learn new things and like adapt to the to the current climate of what is going on like you're gonna get left and your business is probably not going to be a business anymore. Yeah. And I think that that we kind of talked about that a little bit when we had our conversation about like AI and photography a little bit too because so many things are going more of the AI route. Right. And so I think that things like that you you have to like work with it and figure it out and how you're going to use it or not use it or you know basically just learn.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Learn new things.

SPEAKER_00 52:43

Well and I think that this is totally a plug into what you were just talking about with AI and and everything moving forward like that. I think it's interesting that we're in a place where that is on the verge but also people are going back to like old school type film looking.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Uh-huh isn't that interesting it is and just in general you know people are kind of going back to if they want a garden and make their club going back. Yeah or like going two opposite directions.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

You can never replace the creatives though because we're the ones who bring that human into right life. I love that okay so for both of you tell us where everyone can find you online and then tell us where we can find called and creative.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

So um you can find me at Millerimageandmotion.com or um look me up on social media Miller image and motion on Instagram or Facebook.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Okay and then mine is Till the Dawn Photo Company I am on Instagram and Facebook uh my website's tillthedawn.co not dot com dot um and then uh instagram and Facebook is at TilltheDon Photo Co.

SPEAKER_00 53:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 53:48

Yeah that's my hashtag and then called in creative we find it on social media called in creative we have Instagram and Facebook no website currently so just social media and it's now I'm assuming the website will launch with this wedding more than like training.

SPEAKER_00 54:02

Yeah okay so the end of this year probably yeah yeah we did have a site for a minute and it just wasn't getting used it was more geared towards like booking uh events and stuff gotcha we ended up deciding to go different routes yeah um if you visited our site before it's but they can follow you on social media for like meetups or upcoming whatever workshops anything okay and they can always message one of us um we have a private Facebook group for the coffee meetups okay um it just it worked better that way to connect with people and so either they want to keep the crazies out yeah if they want to be added to it uh they can just message one of us and we happy to do that okay awesome awesome awesome okay so that is it for this session of the back office if this conversation gave you clarity a new angle or just the reminder that you're not the only one navigating this then it did its job take what take what's useful apply it move on it and remember no one has it fully figured out but we're building anyway and if you found this episode valuable share it with another uh operator who's building and you can always hang out with us in between sessions at Signify Marketing Social I'm Delena Dylan and we will see you next time